The Place For My Writers Notes

FAQ: SUB guidelines (February 1997)

If you just want to tell me to shut up, I'll understand...

If you want to tell me I've violated my own guidelines repeatedly - yes, I didn't have a helpful little list like this to clue me in. So I've made mistakes. I'll make more in the future - but if I make a little list, maybe I can avoid some of the more blatant ones?

"It ain't how well they dance, it's that they's dancing at all what amazes me..." an early critical failure

SUBmitting to the list

1. Where to send material for critique

Send your material for critique to [the list name]. Include SUB: in the subject line to identify this as material you want someone to look at.

Your subject line should look like (no dash in front)

-Subject: SUB: Hewn in Stone

Many of us also include the broad type of material (poem, short story, horror romance, panting at the bodices...) and if necessary, a warning about the type of contents (Violence and Erotica are the main types I can think of that deserve a warning). So a full subject line might read

-Subject: SUB: Hewn in Stone (Poem) (Erotic Violence)

We do ask that subject lines be readable by children and supervisors, if at all possible. Where necessary, you might put an expurgated version of your title in the subject line and the actual title in the body of the message. This is NOT meant to limit the kinds of materials posted to the list, merely to avoid creating unnecessary problems.

For archival filing, send your material to [long gone archive]. It will be filed, but will not be posted. You may want to "advertise" to the list that your piece has been filed. Note: the archives are limited in size, and when full, will be pruned.

You can post to the list and send a copy cc: to [archive] if desired.

2. Types of Material

Types of material suitable for SUB include fiction of any kind, poetry, essays, journal entries, and similar writing from any genre. Non-fiction also can be submitted. Basically, if you wrote it and you would like help, comments, critique, feel free to SUBmit it.

I suggest that you only submit a few pieces for critique at a time, and that about 8,000 words be the longest single piece submitted.

3. The WRITERS list is a workshop.

That means, first, that material posted to it is provided only for review and critique, and that all rights are retained by the original writer. Second, material posted cannot be copied or reproduced in any way without permission from the original writer. Please take special note that this specifically includes forwarding material posted here to other lists and services. Consider how you would like your workshop posting treated - and treat other people's writing at least as well. In short - if you want to copy, print, forward, or otherwise use material people have posted here, ASK THE AUTHOR FIRST. Professional courtesy.

4. First, consider the audience.

Like most of us, they have other concerns (work, study, sleep.. little things that take up time) and the sometimes overwhelming email from WRITERS. Most of them WANT to see your writing, but they aren't a replacement for doing your own preparation. So.. make your submission as complete and good as you can get it. Finish it, polish it, review it, check spelling, grammar, etc. Act as if you were getting ready to submit it to the editors, or to that dratted professor that hates you and will happily flunk you out of the one required English course you need to graduate...

5. However, even before finishing, you may have questions.

The idea, plot, character, dialogue, action, setting, format, transitions.. any and all of these or other writing points may be keeping you from finalizing the piece. If so, give us enough material to understand the question, and ask the specific questions you have. Sometimes you will want to present one (or more) fragments of writing to illustrate either the problem or the alternatives you have tried, and that is fine. But help us to help you by making the question(s) as clear as possible.

6. Specific Questions or Things You Don't Want

Even when submitting a finished piece, you may want to specify what kind of critique you want. Either before or after, tell the readers any specific questions you have. If you really just want quick checks, say so. If you want detailed, line-by-line editing, ask for that. And if you don't want rewriting (IMHO one of the most effective ways of demonstrating points in a critique, but some people don't like it), say you do not want rewriting.

Please note that what you ask for is not necessarily what you'll get - but you improve your chances by asking.

If you don't know what you want, go ahead and submit it anyway. However, the critiques you receive will will vary depending on local circumstances.

If you simply want people to enjoy your writing, you are welcome to submit it. You may get critiques anyway - and what you are really looking for in this case is responses. "Is my writing good enough to get a response" is a perfectly legitimate question to ask the group, which will respond much more quickly than you can get this question answered by submitting to editors.

7. Partial submissions

Novels and similar long pieces should not be sent in one block to the list, nor should you simply dump it in a set of pieces. The list only allows 200 messages per day, and many people have trouble with limitations on email (quotas). As a matter of courtesy, longer pieces may be handled by proposal ("My 200,000 word novel is finished, and I will send you a copy IF you request it by email." - plus some hints as to what kind of novel it is, please?) or by submitting parts - a chapter, a significant scene, etc.

When you submit a part, always provide a description of the complete work and where the part fits in the larger work. You need to provide enough background material to let us read the part, so you should consider summarizing any previous sections, following sections, and key plot elements.

If you are considering submitting to publishers, such an outline can be very helpful. You may request that people critique the outline as well as the selection you have submitted.

8. Serial submissions

At times, people submit something in several parts over a period of time. This is fine, but the submissions should use the same heading (perhaps with Part xxx), indicate when (and how many) previous parts were sent, and be relatively self-contained (the archives, unfortunately, are not currently available to everyone, and many of your readers will not spend the time to dig up the previous post). Consider how a serial submission in a magazine contains both references to previous parts and a short background summary.

9. What to do after submitting

First, WAIT. Be patient - while some people read and respond very rapidly, others may take several days or even weeks. Don't start griping at the list simply because you haven't seen a response in the first hour after sending it. While you are waiting, you may want to critique some other pieces, start on another piece of writing yourself, or simply participate in some light discussion (it is noticable that number of critiques received increases with participation in the list).

Second, don't jump if you do get a response, and don't fire off an immediate blast at the idiot who posted it. Take time to really think about what they are saying ABOUT YOUR WRITING! In most cases, it is important to thank the critiquers - but you don't need to overdo further explanations. Simply make sure you know why you did something. It is very appropriate, though, to ask for further explanation if you don't understand the critique.

10. Resubmitting.

After you have waited, gotten a critique or two.. don't immediately rewrite your piece and fire it back at the list. It is tempting, but changing the wording, fixing the commas, etc. does not justify asking the list to take another look at your piece immediately. Further, you know yourself that if you have just rewritten it, even made large changes, you need to spend some time reviewing and editing it - polishing it - before showing it to anyone, let alone someone who has already seen it once. Besides - having gotten it in such excellent shape, maybe it's time to send it to the real testing ground - submit it to the editors...

11. Format suggestions

Single space. Try to keep the column width under 75 characters. Don't indent the left margin. Put an end mark of some kind at the end of the piece (a line of dashes is fine). Single-space between paragraphs and indent 5 blanks, OR double-space between paragraphs, and leave it flush left. However you do it, try to be consistent in one posting...

Do not use fancy fonts or other special formats which may be available in your local editor. Save the piece as plain ASCII text (almost every editor has a way to do this - see your manual). For _italics_, use an underbar at the beginning and end of the italicized word(s).

While these are not the same specifications you will need for a final piece for an editor, they have been shown to be the most useful for email reading. Remember, your writing will be seen by people using many different systems - the fancy fonts and other tricks of your local system will merely cause your posting to be unreadable in many cases.

12. Avoid Attachments

Do not "attach", "include" or "enclose" the piece. Depending on the mail system you are using, these commands may result in the list getting a set of numbers, nothing at all, or other strange results. Read your manual, ask local experts, and make sure the text is readable when you send it to the list.

In most cases, saving the file as plain ASCII text, then opening it either in the mail handling system or an editor, selecting all the text, and using copy and paste to put it into a message will result in a readable message.

Often directed at humor, exchanges of human interest, or other postings that do not contain in large letters words such as "WRITING IS" or "CHARACTERS ARE" or "PLOTS" or other direct revelations of writing relevance. Somewhat self-contradictory, since such postings rarely have a good connection to writing.

Responses normally indicate understanding of the connection between any posting on this list and the activity of writing (i.e. putting words in order is what writing is about - specific forms differ in their acceptance as "Real Writing"). Poseurs of the initial question often adamently refuse to give up their porcelain thrones and insist that such trivial exercise is not suited to "Real Writers."

Preferred method of expressing this opinion - start with your own writing, and make sure it is the best you can do. focus your responses on those postings which are "suitable," providing them with positive feedback to increase the frequency of such "good" postings. Keep your bloody trap shut about the attempts of those not up to your exalted state of glory, misspostings, and similar rustlings in the bushes, because you could start a stampede!

If you think someone is really off-track, discuss it with them VIA PRIVATE EMAIL!

Many of us have suffered under criticisms involving these terms, to the point where our hackles go up whenever they are used. Consider, briefly, the common practice of exclusion by referring to "REAL" anything - writers, programmers, etc. Real men don't eat quiche. So, if you eat quiche, you aren't a real man. Real writers don't use adjectives. You used an adjective, therefore... Real writing is published in The New Yorker. Other claptrap need not apply.

Perhaps you intend these terms in another way, without excluding people, without dividing the world into the have's and the have-not's, the anointed and those gentiles out there. However, the usage as a phrase designed to exclude and divide is so common that any time you think of using these words you should think twice, checking to be very, very sure that you are not pushing part of your readership away.

Preferred - writing. writers.

Perhaps I should say that real writers prefer writers and writing, without modification?

(actually, I think I'm a fake writer - or maybe an artificial writer?)

This comes in various flavors, but it usually boils down to THE ONLY WAY to do things is the way I do them.

Writing, like most arts, seems wide enough to accommodate more than one way of doing things. Even worse, often we simply don't know the way you do things...

Two variations of this are the appeal for literary quality or commercial sales orientation. These particular religions are persistent and widespread, but they are not the only answers. Really.

Preferred - I have found the following way (provide discussion) works for me. What do you think? (makes an excellent TECH piece!)

This is often a disguised variation of "What does this have to do with writing." It does have a certain truth in it, though.

This list can generate up to 150 messages per day, and is fairly prolific (that's why they are called writers - they write!). Some of these messages are fairly long (guilty, your honor!). So, if you have a small quota in terms of number or size for mail, it may be difficult to handle the traffic on this list.

If you are concerned about not reading every message, or somehow not being able to "keep up" with the list, please relax. While many of our members try to at least scan every message, it is inevitable that you must skip some messages and not reply in detail to some. Consider this as part of your training as a writer - picking out and selecting those parts of the flood which are important to you, and taking the time to respond clearly.

An interesting variant of this complaint points to extremely short messages as a glut on the list, or gripes about long messages as being unreadable.

This is probably one of the most self-contradictory messages that is posted to this board - adding one more message to the flood does not reduce it.

Preferred: Keep paddling or get out of the flood, but don't try to turn off the floodgates, you'll just get hurt.

This often is the response to a humorous posting, or a posting that takes a different view of the subject than the reader prefers.

The basic answer, of course, is that we are writers, and each of us has some ways that we approach the wide range of subjects that affect human life. Freedom of speech is one approach to ensuring that we do not simply cut off the heads of someone who says something differently than we might.

Beyond that, I think every writer needs to stop and look inward sharply when they feel this kind of question pop up. This is, in essence, not a question for the original writer, but a question for the reader - why does this presentation make you jump? What is it about a humorous piece on necrophilia (for example) that makes you feel somehow dirty and disgusted with the human race? Admittedly, a joke about death may seem shocking and irreverent to some - why?
 
For it is that stirring in your soul that is likely to develop into your own "great writings" - whether in response, desperation, or simple avoidance, and you had best pay attention when it comes up.

Preferred response - as with the first question, don't attack. Put your best writing in, encourage those who are doing well with the reward of your attention, and let us work together to build the group up. I do think it can be very helpful to indicate to the writer that this particular approach and subject matter were difficult for you, and suggest an alternative approach if you can think of one.

When you are looking at the stars, it is hard to pay attention to the muck underfoot...

Some people feel impelled to post their final message in a deliberately antagonistic, angry vein. In many cases, this is also their first posting, which makes the derision of being informed that we haven't done what they wanted even more ridiculous than it was intended to be.

As has been noted, often such people post, but then lurk on the list for some time waiting to see what kind of response they get.

There seem to be two major useful responses to such flaming exits. One is to post a humorous commentary, basically intended to cheer up the remaining members of the list, dispersing the pall that such an exit tends to produce. The other is to refuse response, to hold back and go on.

There is, of course, the counter-flame. If the poster happens to be lurking around, this can result in a running battle, which usually ends up with the person leaving and the list disturbed and perturbed. If the poster is not lurking, such counter-flames do little except for sometimes stirring up those remaining on the list.

Frankly, I see little benefit in responding to flaming exits in any way on the list, except possibly by private email asking for reasonable comments and wishing good luck in finding whatever they are looking for.

Flames, and especially long-term battles involving name-calling and other aggressive/abusive strategies, often call forth further flames, in an expanding spiral of mutual flaming that can leave a burned wasteland behind.

Preferred response - think before you post. wait a day, read it again, and decide if you really need to post this. Consider sending it as private email.

Consider what impression people will receive of you. Don't forget, your next boss, future friend, or next door neighbor may be reading this. Think how they will laugh at you!

Sadly, most of us have a few other involvements in our life. No matter how it may appear, we are NOT simply plugged into writers, waiting to read your piece and respond instantly.

Preferred - be patient. take someone else's piece and respond to it! do a critique, a tech piece, something else, and wait.

Due to the magic of technology, some of us won't even see the piece you are responding to for some length of time after seeing your piece, and there may be any number of intervening pieces, even from the same author. Of course, some of us can't remember from one piece to the next, even if they are sitting in the mailbox together.

Preferred - copy enough material from the piece you are responding to or commenting on to give the reader the context of your remarks. Note that a similar rationale should be used for comments on books, T.V. shows, etc. outside the list - some of us won't be watching The World Mud Wrestling Championship for Mixed Cow and Human Tagteams, honest! So make sure your comment gives us enough background to understand what you are talking about.

Now, in some cases, the confusing comments result from references to private email. Obviously, one way to handle this is to include some of the original email - however, you should ask the originator for permission before doing that.

It is always permissible to respond to private email with private email. Responding in public is a bit like pulling the covers off during private intercourse - check with your partner before revealing yourself to the public!

Preferred:

In general, post when you think more than one person can benefit from seeing your work. if it is really just for one person, send it private email.

Respond to postings by posting to the list when you think more than one person can benefit from the response. Respond by private email in other cases.

Respond to private email in private email. If you think it is important enough to post, discuss it with your correspondent beforehand.