The Place For My Writers Notes

original posting: Thu, 13 May 1993 18:32:01 JST

Chatter, divergent discussions, flames, and other topics are endemic to this list, and often result in harsh exhortations to focus on writing or flurries of gentle reminders (depending on who notices that we've wandered afield again and how they respond to such wandering). However, on consideration, I think both the harsh "writing, the whole writing, and nothing but the writing" and the gentler urges are mistaken.

First, almost a non sequitur, the chatter and lively reactions on this list can provide any good writer with indications of interests that may be found among larger segments of the writer's prospective audience. For example, knowing that this group responds positively to nostalgic recollections of comics, certain older movies, or other bits and pieces provides the writer with cheap "audience testing" that such responses are likely to be found in the larger audience.

However, let us ignore that, since there are other sources of such information, including the general FAQs and such from netnews. Still, there is an important role for the back-and-forth "small talk" often seen in this group. That role lies in exciting and refining the reactions of the writer, who will find that the emotional involvement practiced here will pay off when constructing fiction. And this is the problem with those who try to "douse" the flames before they have reached a conclusion, because whether we feel comfortable or not (I don't enjoy conflict) there is a certain sense in which we can only become "powerful" writers if we are moved to our depths about the issues we are writing about, and that is much more likely to happen if those depths have been opened up, irritated, and aggravated as much as possible in "friendly" fighting here on the list.

I.e., the depth of apathy lies in the lack of reaction, and in that apathy there is no oil for the writer's lamp. Writers strike paydirt when they look inside at precisely those points which cause emotional, hot reactions - and must learn to see more than one side to those grounds, to realize that the protagonist and antagonist are struggling within their very soul. I don't know a better way to find these points or to develop them than through exactly the kind of chatter and diversions that are frequently castigated on this list as being "off-subject."

Perhaps it is my own confusion, but the lists of hints, the critiquing and other activities can be found elsewhere, in purer form. The rumbling flow of point and counterpoint is rarer, and harder to replace.

Again, let me suggest that while the chatter and reactions of the list provides you with some suggestions as to interests of your audience, its most important function is in driving your reactions, in provoking, teasing, angering, even boring you. For in those reactions you can begin to measure yourself, to calibrate the instrument you play within all of your writing, to tune yourself to the current jazz and jive, in short, to come alive.

Your writing will benefit.

Original Posting: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:07:01 EDT

[during an attempt to break the WRITERS list]

Ah, me oh my...

I've been given to understand that there may be some confusion about just who's running things around here, and what the difference is between tink removing privileges to post or read and jester (or others) deciding not to read things, and what is this list for, anyway, and why don't people just delete stuff if they don't want to read it, and so on...

Let me try to clear up some of the confusion. What else would a listowner be doing at midnight on a Friday night, right?

1. Who's the listowner?

First of all, in case it isn't clear, Mike Barker (aka tink) is the listowner. If you'd like to verify that, you can send mail to writers-request@[old address] (the listowners' address for EVERY listserv list--take the name of the list, add -request to it, send mail to it, and you are in touch with the owners). I'll try to answer you fairly soon (don't forget, I'm a volunteer who does this in my "spare" time).

If by any chance you kept the original documents that were sent to you when you joined, you'll find the information about writers-request in there, I believe.

You can also ask the members of the list who have been around a while. Heck, you could even watch to see who spends their time cleaning up, posting FAQs and so forth, and who takes care of disruption and other problems on the list. I think in a short time you'll be able to figure out what I do.

Or you can check out [collection of writers postings] and look at the pages and pages of writers postings that I have archived there. Even the most prolific might find it difficult to throw together such a collection overnight (although they might organize their's better, I will grant you).

Oh, and there are some parts which you really should just take on faith...for example, if you insist on personal attacks, harassment, or other disruption, I'll be the one who removes your privileges.

In short, I'm the listowner.

2. tink said he was removing privileges, then jester said he was going to kill all the newbies--so we've all been kicked off the list, right?

Well, no...some people refuse to play by the fairly lenient rules that we have developed for this workshop of writers. I remove their privileges to participate and let the list know what has happened. That's one level.

On the other hand, someone like Jester cannot remove your membership.

What he can do (as can any of you--and as several recent posters have strongly urged that we all do) is to choose not to read postings from some addresses, certain types of postings, etc. He (or anyone else) can use the topic filtering of listserv to pick between (properly labelled) SUB:, CRIT:, TECH:, EXER:, WOW:, FILL:, or INT: postings. In most modern mailers, he (and you) also has various kinds of filtering abilities. For example, you can choose to put all postings from mbarker into a separate folder, into the trashcan, or whatever. You can also choose to route postings with [WRITERS] in the subject line to a specific folder.

(I believe jester has chosen to have "known" and "unknown" folders, with authors that he knows going into the "known" stack while all others go into the slushpile...er, ah, "unknown" folder. And like most editors, he reads from the known stack first, and looks at the slushpile if he has time. This kind of prioritization, whether deliberate and automated or unconscious and sloppy, is pretty old, really.)

Or, of course, you can do the old manual trick of looking at the subject lines and from fields (usually available in some kind of an index in your mailer) and deciding which pieces of mail to open first (or which to delete first) from that index.

So--when people say they aren't reading you, that means just that--they are ignoring you. It doesn't stop your posting and participation in the list, although you may want to consider what lead to them taking that radical stance. It's especially surprising given that most of the members here are the kind of people who read the ingredients on boxes while standing in lines rather than just stand there with their mouths open--i.e., they tend to read EVERYTHING if they possibly can.

When tink says you can't post to the list, you'll know it. You'll also know what you can do to rejoin, because I tell every person who loses the privileges of membership what they need to do to rejoin the list.

Okay? Let's see if I can come up with an analogy...well, suppose WRITERS is a newspaper, with each person who posts being a reporter (of sorts).

One level--jester deciding not to read some people's postings--is just someone deciding not to read the sports section of the newspaper. That's their choice, and doesn't directly impact your ability to post and participate (although if you get enough people ignoring you, it'll be kind of boring, but nobody promised you readers...you've got to provide enough reason for them to start reading and keep reading).

The other level--tink removing privileges--is the editor-in-chief deciding that there isn't going to be sports section any more (and you, unfortunately, are the sports writer). Specifically, it's the listowner making sure that individuals are not misusing the privileges of list membership.

3. Isn't this list just for interesting or entertaining writing? Can't people just post anything that they like?

No, not exactly. This list is a workshop for writing, not simply a place for anyone to post whatever they like. For example, original writing (fiction, poetry, the occasional essay or non-fiction piece) is sent to the list as a SUBmission (with SUB: in the subject line). Other members then CRITique or comment on the writing (with CRIT: in the subject line). We also exchange TECHnique pieces (with TECH: in the subject line) discussing aspects of the techniques or technical side of writing. We sometimes post EXERcise (with EXER: in the subject line) pieces, written to provide others with a chance to exercise their writing. We post World Of Writing (WOW:) pieces sharing information about the world of writing "out there" beyond the workshop. We also exchange some FILLer pieces, usually focusing on experiences, ideas, or other background to writing which doesn't fit so easily into the other topic areas. Finally, we sometimes have INTeractive (guess where to put the INT: ) series, either the standard kind of round robbin stories with multiple authors adding new segments or other multiple member participatory threads. Shared worlds, etc.

In other words, while it is true that we do share interesting or entertaining writing, there is an etiquette or protocol for doing so. The BIO or INTRO pieces are intended to be autobiographical, not fiction. (And yes, I am well aware that there is some fiction in all writing--but let's not attempt to get bogged down in minor points, let's work together to understand, all right?)

4. What does it matter whether the life stories and experiences are true or not? Who knows what is real on the computer, anyway? If we tell a good story, and people enjoy what they are reading, where's the problem?

Ah, me. And all life is but a tale told by a madman, hovering in the mists of memory...and if the butterfly sneezes, who will dream us again?

There is, of course, at least one person who always knows whether you are telling the truth or not.

And that person is your judge, jury, and possibly executioner...or at least warden of the prison.

That person is yourself.

If you tell a story well enough--and people know it is a story, and enjoy it in the reading--indeed, there is no problem. This is working within the social framework that supports writing and fiction.

If you insist on telling stories when those about you are expecting truth, and from time to time pull the rug out from under them and laugh at their discomfort--no, that really isn't acceptable. This is using the social interactions as a way to trap and hurt people.

5. Look, just don't believe everything you read, and enjoy life. If you don`t want to read it, use delete.

Excellent advice. And, oddly, exactly what Jester proposed to do, which upset several people very much...

Of course, there is also the point that this list is NOT available for anyone to post anything that they like. In fact, members of this list should not have to use delete very much to avoid things they don't want to read. That's really the point in having a list--to try to make sure that most of the postings ARE "on topic."

What this advice to use delete and let people do whatever they want actually suggests is that after spending five years or more working on this list, collecting the members and getting a level of communication built up, I (as list owner) must allow anyone to use that membership collection in any way that they like?

I'm sorry to be the one to burst the bubble, but that isn't the way this works.

Feel free to start another list. But on this list, there are some rules, some guidelines, some ways of doing things which we all obey. They aren't as onerous as you might expect--mostly, they amount to common sense and a bit of respect for the other members.

I will point out that deliberately deceiving your readers when they are expecting truth or fact (and on this list, the members are also readers) seems...well, pitiful, to be honest.

If you want help learning how to work with this list, just ask.

You might be surprised at how much fun it can be.

tink

Original Posting: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 18:35:02 JST

FAQ: A Sandcastle for 400 or so

Hope you enjoy Labor Day!

tink
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Can I borrow your bucket for a minute?"

The white sand shimmers under the sunshine here in cyberspace. It's a little bit damp, just perfect for building sandcastles. Or for laying back and enjoying the bright, warm sun. Or for digging moats, covering toes, or running, running, running down the endless summer of our discontent.

Matter of fact, it's just perfect for whatever project you have in words.

Of course, sometimes your neighbors will have something to say about the shape, the form, the content, the slope of your wall, the holes you forgot to fill, or something else. Sometimes anything else.

But oh, what a wonder when the castles rise!

Sometimes the towers seem to reach to the sky, with a princess silhouetted against the moonlight, giants and ogres stolidly crunching along, and heroes and heroines too few. Sometimes there is just a sandy puddle, with a few cryptic marks around the edges where a prehistoric relic dragged itself momentarily into the air, then vanished again into the safe salty depths.

Most of the time, there is traffic, heavy and light, skidding and throwing plumes of sand this way and that, as the keyboards click and the terminals sweat.

The picnic crowd likes to toss dill pickles, ham, and other little treats around while we're working on those major and minor touches of literary delight. Don't worry, they'll pay attention when your castle goes up, but the snacks in the middle do help keep the fingers working and the brain going during those long, hot afternoons.

Even the occasional fireworks and sprays of foam help make the sandbox a place for everyone.

Just try to keep the sand out of your eyes.

If you visit this sandbox from BITNET, the address is WRITERS@NDSUVM1.BITNET. If you're visiting from the internet, the address is WRITERS@vm1.nodak.edu. [addresses well out of date]

But either way, the sandbox waits for your architectural touch, so grab a shovel, pack your bucket, and start building your dreams.

We're all waiting to see that castle rise here.

"Sure! Can I help?"

Always room for another sandcastle here.

One that only you can write.

So start digging.


And from the earth arose a great shining castle, hulking in the eldritch light, with stained glass windows glowing...

From the water, strange mists and sleek swimming beasts arose and danced in curling spouts, leaping upward from wavetops, skidding toward the land in the surf and spume...

From the air, cool breezes, hot dry Chinooks, and transparent figures of clearest invisible form blew through...

And from the fire, the sand grew into glass bubbles, domes, great shimmering webs reaching into hearts and minds...

As keyboards and terminals joined in the sandbox...

of the writers.

See you there!
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original posting: Sat, 4 Jun 1994 18:35:03 JST

FAQ: Writhing in the Mists: A Diffident Hello (v.1)

It's been a while, and I'm feeling lazy, so here's a re-run!

Writhing in the Mists: A Diffident Hello
April 1, 1993 (Vers. 1)
mike barker (tinkerer's apprentice)
614 words

Delving in the deeps of the electronic jangle, you've found this. And like others before you, you may wonder just what you've found.

Looking closely, you'll learn this is a mirror. It may be called WRITERS@[bitnet address] or writers@[internet address], but in the mists, the mirror dangles at the end of electronic vines that wrap around the world, thrusting tendrils searching for those the mirror can brighten.

What kind of mirror? Sometimes brassy, sometimes glassy and quicksilver gleaming, but always changing and ever the same, a flowing stream casting reflections across the jangle.

Beware of what you may find here, for the writers' mirror can reflect a terrible swift sword of sight, slicing the wings from angels to make them walk the earth, burning you with a blackened wisp of sad regrets, or bringing life to the diamond heart. Swinging again, you may see moonbeams dancing on elven toes, glimpse the navel of the buddha, feel the poet's wild fire. On another swing, who knows what will look out from that mirror, bringing laughter and fear, heartbreak or drear?

But try the mesmerizing crystal for a while, watch it swing and twist, sway and turn, sooth and burn, and you may learn to crave its oddly comforting swirls and curls dancing in the night.

Add your own trembling dashes to the invigorated bobbing of this mystical mirror and you may find it a doorway, opening again and again into worlds of wandering wonder, blundering banter, tactless technique, even friendship now and then.

Watch as it swings, lightly it sings, sometimes prosaic, sometimes too terrible for human hearts breaking, now there's your face, here comes a race, and there.. a truth you've never dared to show? words your heart had ready to flow? tears and smiles, too many miles yet to go, before you reap the work you seek, yet walking with others is twice as fast as digging alone into the past.

Be aware of the mirror, let it guide you and mind you, but mostly hello, from one tale twister to another.

Hello, writer.

Keep an eye out for yourself in the mirror - you may enjoy what you learn about yourself!

original posting: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 13:25:21 JST

FAQ: Unmasked on Blacklight Stage

Hello. May I see your ticket? Oh, yes, you've signed up for WRITERS. Well, if this is your first time with them, may I suggest you look at this? And your seat is just through these curtains...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unmasked on Blacklight Stage
(A One-Act Play With An All-Star Cast of Bit Players)

[alone and a bit nervous, you push through the black felt curtains and feel your way to a seat in the darkness. you sit down quickly and peer into the darkness, wondering what will happen next. slowly your eyes adjust, and you get the impression there might be a stage somewhere in front of you. on one side, a spotlight flashes on an odd costumed figure...]

Hey! Look at this! Some really weird stuff happens when I stand on my head in the shower. Water gets down my nose.

[the light flicks off, and you shake your head. What does that have to do with... another spotlight flashes on the stage, hitting a white masked figure there.]

When I was sixteen, there were fires in the street and ghosts walking. Not fun, my fellow freaks, but bone-chilling horror for people without skin.

[the light fades again, and you are even more confused. Who are these... then many lights flash and fade, exposing and concealing various figures, faces, and costumes, all weaving a ballet of madness before your eyes...]

Send me a postcard, please?

It's that time of the month, and I WANTA SCREAM!!!!

Hemingway, clearly, is THE author of our times. Still, Melville's prose and Whitman's poetry cannot be ignored. Neither should we turn our noses up at the rich heritage of literature. Instead, we need to mine that ore for as much richness and variety of techniques as we can find. Then we can write true romances of stature.

Hey, has anyone heard from the Black Eye recently?

Here is the story I have been engraving in stone for the last twenty years. Do you have any comments?

[the verbose comments and the dancing lights continue, and you wonder what kind of asylum this is. they look like they're having fun, but it is so confusing and lonely sitting in the dark. Why don't they notice...

YOU!

<a spotlight flashes, then settles on your startled face, bringing tears>]

Hey, writer, this stage is open and waiting for you to put on an act of your own. We can't see you until you post, but don't let that hold you back. Spend a little time thinking about it, then join in.

Try starting with a little INTRO - let us know who is behind the words that will be coming.

Then, you should join in wherever you have something to add. Stories and poetry are always appreciated. Critiques (comments about someone else's writing, the style, the feelings they brought) also are good ways to contribute. You can also join in any of the little exercises, various cooperative forms of writing, and other exchanges of wittiness.

The "small" chatter, the talk of interests and memories and who we are, may not seem important, especially if you are used to classes or workshops where such discussion is frowned on as a "waste of time" or "off the subject." However, it is a good way to practice one style of writing and relax with the members of the list, gives everyone a little more feeling for the person behind the plays wherein to catch the conscience, and can provide critical sparks igniting the muses to a fiery dance. Besides, those small steps are sometimes easier to use to get up on the stage.

Lastly, ask questions. Tell us about your discoveries, from the wonderful new trick for plotting New York Time's Bestsellers to the funny red bugs eating your peppermint plants. And keep posting - it takes time to become known, and the care and feeding of friendships may take even longer.

So, join us in the 365 day a year masquerade ball. Your costume will be hand-crafted by you out of words and wonders that you post, and sometimes it helps to give us a peek behind the draperies (those fright masks and demon faces can be quite a shock!). But don't just sit in the cheap seats unless you want to, because while all the world's a stage, here you have an interested audience - your fellow writers.

[the spotlight fades, but now you know the magic for calling it up again whenever you want. Post. You smile in the darkness, knowing that you too have a place in the fake sun on the blacklight stage called WRITERS. Your email box will rarely be empty again...]

Don't wait for a gold-engraved invitation, the stage manager isn't that organized. This is an amateur, write-your-own-play effort, quite a bit off-Broadway, and we really need audience participation. Grab a mask, throw us a line, and help keep improvisational theatre off the streets and on the computers! This is the dawning of the Age of Escritier...
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original posting: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 17:00:03 JST

FAQ: Golden Eggs of Cyberspace

Chirp, chirp, chirp... no birdbrained jokes, ok? Enjoy...

mike (the mani-faq man...)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Golden Eggs of Cyberspace

In the midst of the untamed wild growth on that strange field known as cyberspace, somewhat shaded, tucked away in a ravine far from the maddened masses that run unchecked elsewhere, sits an incubator.

No ordinary chicks come out of this incubator, no setting hens, no crowing roosters, no pullets gobbling feed to become fat dinners for lazy consumers. No, this incubator houses odd and sometimes frightening forms of dream and nightmare.

From time to time, one will scream, a primal roar of agonized humanity that rings as it breaks through the walls.

Another may chitter and gape, chitter and gape, waiting for some fat little worm to fall into its hungry maw. Snap! Gobble, crunch, and chitter and gape again.

Still others shake wings, newly downy and sleek, stretching and grooming towards the day when they will fly, wobbling and faltering, but at last reaching up into the sky.

Some open lives with a thrust and a twist of scavenging beak, while others sing a song born in primeval dawn, polished by ages, and healing all pain.

The incubator houses eggs, still growing and unopened; odd chicks whose voices, feathers, beaks and claws are working and stretching; older cuckoos, just begging to play; and quite a few others in every stage of growth. Not so quiet, of course, and perhaps there are times when the feathers fly for no reason. Still, it's a home and a place for growing, with warmth when they are cold.

On the side, under a leaf, sits a small, discolored plate. It announces that the incubator is named writers@[ancient address]. Sometimes an egg may smell a little, but there are no bad eggs, because this incubator works with the golden eggs of cyberspace... fledgling writers breaking the shell.

When you're ready, chip your way out of that shell and spread your wings out in the warmth of the incubator. We're waiting for your song.
------------------------------------------------------

Original posting: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 22:45:49 EDT

FAQ: Firewords and Revolutions

[welcome, one and all...before I get down to drudgery, let me invoke a bit of the magic of words, just for fun. I'll try to avoid grinding salt or dipping water, though... :-]

Hi. Glad you could make it. Why don't you sit down, and we can talk a little about this place.

[that chair? well, okay, it's not an ordinary chair. a little electricity, a few pixels, and a dash of imagination. Not bad, eh?]

By the way, what do you think of the place?

Oh, no, that's okay. I can understand that you might want to hear some of my ideas about it first. Let's see...

I suppose I might call it a bar apres les workshop, a theater mostly absurd, a mere reflection in the midst of the cyberspatial jungle--almost any of those might be a place to start. But they're not quite right, are they?

[back to basics?]

I guess at one level it's just a mailing list. You send your message to WRITERS@[old address], it bounces around in the gears, and copies are
sent to at least 450 places. Simple. Just like a hundred other lists.

[She could have posted to any other list, but she posted to mine...sorry, that's another story]

At another level, it's a kind of community. Many lists form such a group, with some well-known characters pontificating on anything and everything that strikes their interest. In some places newcomers are bashed and beaten severely if they dare to express something different from the prevailing blasts of hot air--and that is a shame, because such groups all too easily become sour and strange beds of inbred stagnation, no matter how loudly they proclaim their doctrines.

[be ye a star-bellied sneetch or be ye not? declare yourself, so that we may smite you if you be different...]

So, what do you think about those?

Oh, sure, well, yes. trite, but true. So...

You're right, the list really isn't a thing or an object. It's more like a way--kind of a path. Today, maybe, there's a pile of animal excrement that you have to shovel out of your way, looking for anything that might be buried in the muck. Then another day revels with displays of fine worked words and braids of great artistry and talent. And, of course, there are all the days in the muddle, with some gems, some flames, and a great deal of chatter and patter...so you walk along, watching where you step, and enjoy the scenery, eh?

[walk this sway, my star? and swing low croons of delight, fantasy?...]

On the Fourth of July--Independence Day in the United States--I suppose I could appeal to firewords, patriots bleeding on oaks, and such. Take a stand on the flag, and see who salutes it?

[oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave? over the land of the free and the home of the brave...Play BALL!]

Okay, you've been patient. Listen, lean over here and I'll tell you the truth. I'll just whisper it in your ear, just between you and I, okay?

Writers is...

[hey, is someone else listening? get out of here, this is just between my buddy and me, okay? private, you know?

sorry about that. I hate eavesdroppers, don't you? so, let me see...oh, yeah, writers...]

well, it's real simple. the truth is writers is whatever you make of it.

So write soon--and write here on your list.

and you thought it was going to be a surprise, didn't you? thought I'd have the magic hidden truth of the ages locked in my grimy little keyboard?

actually, you do.

let it out.

[O say, can you see, by your login's early light,
What so proudly we posted at our screens' last gleaming?
Those broad jokes and bright tears, thro' the cyberspatial night,
on the terminals we watch'd, were so constantly streaming?...]

Put your words where your fingers are, and I'm willing to bet we can make a revolution happen--or at least get someone to read between the lines...

Viva Writers!

The unending revolutionary party!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
[Please feel free to print this FAQ and keep a copy for when you have questions! In fact, the author would be pleased if you did that.]

The meat in this sandwich - v. 17, July 4, 1995

[chopped out for safety]
-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-
[you say you want a revolution,
well, you know, it all begins with you...]

open a vein--blood!
one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration--sweat!
and
something is rotten in Denmark...a tragedy--tears!

(pass the vampires, skip the deodorant, and don't spare the tissues!
full text ahead!)

if we don't write together, we shall assuredly rot separately!

It's your list--write on, writer!
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

original posting: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:54:19 EST

FAQ: Somewhere Near The Dudley Do Write Inn, (rev. 8)

walking down memory lane, I turned into this place in the moonlight...
thought some of you might enjoy taking a stroll with me.

[for those who wonder what the heck this is, keep reading...]

tink
-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
Somewhere Near The Dudley Do Write Inn,
On a Dark and Stormy Night
Nov. 28, 1995 (rev. 8)

You look a little lost, so let me introduce you to the place. It can be a mite confusing at first.

What is this? Well, let me invite you into the WRITERS Saloon, part time grill, and (sometimes) font for libations (all kinds welcome). Some people think of this as the bar for after the workshop, which isn't a bad way to describe it.

Don't you go listening to those rumors about us being a front for liberations, we just like candelabra on our piano now and then. Nothing to do with libertines, fraternizations, and eggheads, really.

I notice you're admiring that bar. Let me tell you, it's pretty special. Starts at WRITERS@[odd address], also called writers@[another address], but the bar (whether you're looking for drinking, ballet, or judgment) stretches around the world with plenty of odd kinks and twists. You can get caught in those angles in no time.

The place is open for business any time. Serves stories, poetry, essays, and those big bowls of chatter for your pleasure. If you don't see what you like, feel free to whip some up and set it out on the bar for everybody to enjoy. Don't let the comments about seasoning get to you, everyone seems to have their own notions about the best way to get the taste right. Try some of the bubbly humor or those dark poetics and relax with the folks.

Darn! Oh, not you. Someone stuck some of their gum up under the edge of the bar here. Just a minute, I got to get that out before it gets hard. That stuff seems to turn up everywhere.

Oh, now that's really pretty disgusting. Someone left their ear under here. Those artists!

Where were we? Oh, if you like gambling, try the Dare. Best game in town, I think. Simple, too, like drinking a shotglass of beer every minute. Just write a new story every week and send them all out to the magazines. Ask around, someone can tell you all about it.

There's usually a Quote Of The Day going on, and some of the folks toss in a game of words now and then. Some of the exercises are good ways to stretch your writing, too.

Aside from that, there's a fair amount of friendly talk, sometimes making it hard for your order to get through. But be patient, we will get around to you in time. If you get in a hurry, help us out.

Let's see. There's lots of dark corners, and always an empty seat for another lurker. So if that's what you want to do, set down, take a sip from the pop bubbling around or fill your plate at the smorgasbord of literate delights and relax for a while, watch the show.

If you get to feeling rowdy, go ahead and take a swing. Fair warning, plenty of these folks carry loaded words, so you may find yourself looking down a double-barreled thesaurus full of words. Some of the folks also like to dance, though, and you may get invited onto the floor. Can't tell until you try, and even then you may not be sure.

Oh, if you get into a real knock-down drag-'em-out fight, please take it outside. If you've got some real fancy wordwork, we might all watch for a while, but don't just keep on wasting everyone's time. Take it out in the alleys, and let us know how it comes out.

Whoops! Turn your head a little, that's it, there you are. Got to watch out for that mirror, it's a specialty of the place. Liable to show you almost anything. Fellow that made it, let me think, oh, yeah, Marlin, British fellow, I think, he said it's just like those ones they had way back in Greece and Rome, maybe before that, but he added in a lot of fancy new stuff. Sometimes you can see forever in it, sometimes just the back of your head... Takes some getting used to, but then you start to like seeing yourself in new ways. Bet you never knew about that little extra something back there on your neck, now did you?

If you get curious about something, ask around, and someone will usually help you out. Friendly bunch, even if they don't have a lot of spare time. They're all writers, you know, just like you, so don't yell at them about not doing something until you've tried doing it yourself. I mean, look at who has to sweep up - and I'm not getting paid for it, either.

Who am I? I run the popcorn, peanuts, and candy concession out at the east end of the bar, near Ha'va'd. Got a special on bubble gum this week, if you want some. I'll help pop your bubble, too. Just call me tink.

Okay, I'm going to put away the broom and leave you alone out here for a while. Whenever you're ready, step up to the bar or kick off your shoes and jump on the dance floor and show the folks your stuff.

They'll be looking for it. Just remember the key - write and write and write and...

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
[Please feel free to print this FAQ and keep a copy for when you have questions! In fact, the author would be pleased if you did that.]

The meat in this sandwich - v. 18, Nov. 28, 1995

[removed because it is way past the use by date]
-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-
You know, I think that storm's clearing up. Maybe you can find what you're looking for, or we can see you, dancing by the light of the moon at the Saloon... Won't you come out tonight?
-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=

Original Posting: February 1997

A fair amount of this is related to mechanics of the WRITERS list as it worked then. But . . . still might be helpful here and there?

FAQ: SUB guidelines (February 1997)

The list has no pants, granted, but I thought I'd toss in some grunts for fun. Salty replies, especially those that recommend or advise alternatives, will be gratefully swiped and folded into the next version unless you specifically tell me not to use your ideas or words...

If you just want to tell me to shut up, I'll understand...

If you want to tell me I've violated my own guidelines repeatedly - yes, I didn't have a helpful little list like this to clue me in. So I've made mistakes. I'll make more in the future - but if I make a little list, maybe I can avoid some of the more blatant ones?

"It ain't how well they dance, it's that they's dancing at all what amazes me..." an early critical failure

SUBmitting to the list

1. Where to send material for critique

Send your material for critique to [the list name]. Include SUB: in the subject line to identify this as material you want someone to look at.

Your subject line should look like (no dash in front)

-Subject: SUB: Hewn in Stone

Many of us also include the broad type of material (poem, short story, horror romance, panting at the bodices...) and if necessary, a warning about the type of contents (Violence and Erotica are the main types I can think of that deserve a warning). So a full subject line might read

-Subject: SUB: Hewn in Stone (Poem) (Erotic Violence)

We do ask that subject lines be readable by children and supervisors, if at all possible. Where necessary, you might put an expurgated version of your title in the subject line and the actual title in the body of the message. This is NOT meant to limit the kinds of materials posted to the list, merely to avoid creating unnecessary problems.

For archival filing, send your material to [long gone archive]. It will be filed, but will not be posted. You may want to "advertise" to the list that your piece has been filed. Note: the archives are limited in size, and when full, will be pruned.

You can post to the list and send a copy cc: to [archive] if desired.

2. Types of Material

Types of material suitable for SUB include fiction of any kind, poetry, essays, journal entries, and similar writing from any genre. Non-fiction also can be submitted. Basically, if you wrote it and you would like help, comments, critique, feel free to SUBmit it.

I suggest that you only submit a few pieces for critique at a time, and that about 8,000 words be the longest single piece submitted.

3. The WRITERS list is a workshop.

That means, first, that material posted to it is provided only for review and critique, and that all rights are retained by the original writer. Second, material posted cannot be copied or reproduced in any way without permission from the original writer. Please take special note that this specifically includes forwarding material posted here to other lists and services. Consider how you would like your workshop posting treated - and treat other people's writing at least as well. In short - if you want to copy, print, forward, or otherwise use material people have posted here, ASK THE AUTHOR FIRST. Professional courtesy.

4. First, consider the audience.

Like most of us, they have other concerns (work, study, sleep.. little things that take up time) and the sometimes overwhelming email from WRITERS. Most of them WANT to see your writing, but they aren't a replacement for doing your own preparation. So.. make your submission as complete and good as you can get it. Finish it, polish it, review it, check spelling, grammar, etc. Act as if you were getting ready to submit it to the editors, or to that dratted professor that hates you and will happily flunk you out of the one required English course you need to graduate...

5. However, even before finishing, you may have questions.

The idea, plot, character, dialogue, action, setting, format, transitions.. any and all of these or other writing points may be keeping you from finalizing the piece. If so, give us enough material to understand the question, and ask the specific questions you have. Sometimes you will want to present one (or more) fragments of writing to illustrate either the problem or the alternatives you have tried, and that is fine. But help us to help you by making the question(s) as clear as possible.

6. Specific Questions or Things You Don't Want

Even when submitting a finished piece, you may want to specify what kind of critique you want. Either before or after, tell the readers any specific questions you have. If you really just want quick checks, say so. If you want detailed, line-by-line editing, ask for that. And if you don't want rewriting (IMHO one of the most effective ways of demonstrating points in a critique, but some people don't like it), say you do not want rewriting.

Please note that what you ask for is not necessarily what you'll get - but you improve your chances by asking.

If you don't know what you want, go ahead and submit it anyway. However, the critiques you receive will will vary depending on local circumstances.

If you simply want people to enjoy your writing, you are welcome to submit it. You may get critiques anyway - and what you are really looking for in this case is responses. "Is my writing good enough to get a response" is a perfectly legitimate question to ask the group, which will respond much more quickly than you can get this question answered by submitting to editors.

7. Partial submissions

Novels and similar long pieces should not be sent in one block to the list, nor should you simply dump it in a set of pieces. The list only allows 200 messages per day, and many people have trouble with limitations on email (quotas). As a matter of courtesy, longer pieces may be handled by proposal ("My 200,000 word novel is finished, and I will send you a copy IF you request it by email." - plus some hints as to what kind of novel it is, please?) or by submitting parts - a chapter, a significant scene, etc.

When you submit a part, always provide a description of the complete work and where the part fits in the larger work. You need to provide enough background material to let us read the part, so you should consider summarizing any previous sections, following sections, and key plot elements.

If you are considering submitting to publishers, such an outline can be very helpful. You may request that people critique the outline as well as the selection you have submitted.

8. Serial submissions

At times, people submit something in several parts over a period of time. This is fine, but the submissions should use the same heading (perhaps with Part xxx), indicate when (and how many) previous parts were sent, and be relatively self-contained (the archives, unfortunately, are not currently available to everyone, and many of your readers will not spend the time to dig up the previous post). Consider how a serial submission in a magazine contains both references to previous parts and a short background summary.

9. What to do after submitting

First, WAIT. Be patient - while some people read and respond very rapidly, others may take several days or even weeks. Don't start griping at the list simply because you haven't seen a response in the first hour after sending it. While you are waiting, you may want to critique some other pieces, start on another piece of writing yourself, or simply participate in some light discussion (it is noticable that number of critiques received increases with participation in the list).

Second, don't jump if you do get a response, and don't fire off an immediate blast at the idiot who posted it. Take time to really think about what they are saying ABOUT YOUR WRITING! In most cases, it is important to thank the critiquers - but you don't need to overdo further explanations. Simply make sure you know why you did something. It is very appropriate, though, to ask for further explanation if you don't understand the critique.

10. Resubmitting.

After you have waited, gotten a critique or two.. don't immediately rewrite your piece and fire it back at the list. It is tempting, but changing the wording, fixing the commas, etc. does not justify asking the list to take another look at your piece immediately. Further, you know yourself that if you have just rewritten it, even made large changes, you need to spend some time reviewing and editing it - polishing it - before showing it to anyone, let alone someone who has already seen it once. Besides - having gotten it in such excellent shape, maybe it's time to send it to the real testing ground - submit it to the editors...

11. Format suggestions

Single space. Try to keep the column width under 75 characters. Don't indent the left margin. Put an end mark of some kind at the end of the piece (a line of dashes is fine). Single-space between paragraphs and indent 5 blanks, OR double-space between paragraphs, and leave it flush left. However you do it, try to be consistent in one posting...

Do not use fancy fonts or other special formats which may be available in your local editor. Save the piece as plain ASCII text (almost every editor has a way to do this - see your manual). For _italics_, use an underbar at the beginning and end of the italicized word(s).

While these are not the same specifications you will need for a final piece for an editor, they have been shown to be the most useful for email reading. Remember, your writing will be seen by people using many different systems - the fancy fonts and other tricks of your local system will merely cause your posting to be unreadable in many cases.

12. Avoid Attachments

Do not "attach", "include" or "enclose" the piece. Depending on the mail system you are using, these commands may result in the list getting a set of numbers, nothing at all, or other strange results. Read your manual, ask local experts, and make sure the text is readable when you send it to the list.

In most cases, saving the file as plain ASCII text, then opening it either in the mail handling system or an editor, selecting all the text, and using copy and paste to put it into a message will result in a readable message.

Don't forget to read the companion piece, FAQ: CRIT guidelines (February 1997) for some thoughts on how to respond to a SUBmission.

(last modified Nov. 13, 1995)

Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1993 18:00:05 JST
Subject: FAQ: A Preliminary List of Sparks and Irritants

[Actually, this is more like Frequently Angry Forest Fire Starters, but I'm not sure people would recognize the acronym FAFFS...]

These points arise repeatedly on this list and are prone to result in anger, frustration, and flamewars of various denominations. Please consider before you toss that match!

1. What does this have to do with writing?

Often directed at humor, exchanges of human interest, or other postings that do not contain in large letters words such as "WRITING IS" or "CHARACTERS ARE" or "PLOTS" or other direct revelations of writing relevance. Somewhat self-contradictory, since such postings rarely have a good connection to writing.

Responses normally indicate understanding of the connection between any posting on this list and the activity of writing (i.e. putting words in order is what writing is about - specific forms differ in their acceptance as "Real Writing"). Poseurs of the initial question often adamently refuse to give up their porcelain thrones and insist that such trivial exercise is not suited to "Real Writers."

Preferred method of expressing this opinion - start with your own writing, and make sure it is the best you can do. focus your responses on those postings which are "suitable," providing them with positive feedback to increase the frequency of such "good" postings. Keep your bloody trap shut about the attempts of those not up to your exalted state of glory, misspostings, and similar rustlings in the bushes, because you could start a stampede!

If you think someone is really off-track, discuss it with them VIA PRIVATE EMAIL!

2. Real writing, real writers, professional writers...

Many of us have suffered under criticisms involving these terms, to the point where our hackles go up whenever they are used. Consider, briefly, the common practice of exclusion by referring to "REAL" anything - writers, programmers, etc. Real men don't eat quiche. So, if you eat quiche, you aren't a real man. Real writers don't use adjectives. You used an adjective, therefore... Real writing is published in The New Yorker. Other claptrap need not apply.

Perhaps you intend these terms in another way, without excluding people, without dividing the world into the have's and the have-not's, the anointed and those gentiles out there. However, the usage as a phrase designed to exclude and divide is so common that any time you think of using these words you should think twice, checking to be very, very sure that you are not pushing part of your readership away.

Preferred - writing. writers.

Perhaps I should say that real writers prefer writers and writing, without modification?

(actually, I think I'm a fake writer - or maybe an artificial writer?)

3. Why doesn't everyone do things the right way?

This comes in various flavors, but it usually boils down to THE ONLY WAY to do things is the way I do them.

Writing, like most arts, seems wide enough to accommodate more than one way of doing things. Even worse, often we simply don't know the way you do things...

Two variations of this are the appeal for literary quality or commercial sales orientation. These particular religions are persistent and widespread, but they are not the only answers. Really.

Preferred - I have found the following way (provide discussion) works for me. What do you think? (makes an excellent TECH piece!)

4. Why are there so many messages on this list?

This is often a disguised variation of "What does this have to do with writing." It does have a certain truth in it, though.

This list can generate up to 150 messages per day, and is fairly prolific (that's why they are called writers - they write!). Some of these messages are fairly long (guilty, your honor!). So, if you have a small quota in terms of number or size for mail, it may be difficult to handle the traffic on this list.

If you are concerned about not reading every message, or somehow not being able to "keep up" with the list, please relax. While many of our members try to at least scan every message, it is inevitable that you must skip some messages and not reply in detail to some. Consider this as part of your training as a writer - picking out and selecting those parts of the flood which are important to you, and taking the time to respond clearly.

An interesting variant of this complaint points to extremely short messages as a glut on the list, or gripes about long messages as being unreadable.

This is probably one of the most self-contradictory messages that is posted to this board - adding one more message to the flood does not reduce it.

Preferred: Keep paddling or get out of the flood, but don't try to turn off the floodgates, you'll just get hurt.

5. How can you write about (sex, death, abortion, xxx) in that way?

This often is the response to a humorous posting, or a posting that takes a different view of the subject than the reader prefers.

The basic answer, of course, is that we are writers, and each of us has some ways that we approach the wide range of subjects that affect human life. Freedom of speech is one approach to ensuring that we do not simply cut off the heads of someone who says something differently than we might.

Beyond that, I think every writer needs to stop and look inward sharply when they feel this kind of question pop up. This is, in essence, not a question for the original writer, but a question for the reader - why does this presentation make you jump? What is it about a humorous piece on necrophilia (for example) that makes you feel somehow dirty and disgusted with the human race? Admittedly, a joke about death may seem shocking and irreverent to some - why?
 
For it is that stirring in your soul that is likely to develop into your own "great writings" - whether in response, desperation, or simple avoidance, and you had best pay attention when it comes up.

Preferred response - as with the first question, don't attack. Put your best writing in, encourage those who are doing well with the reward of your attention, and let us work together to build the group up. I do think it can be very helpful to indicate to the writer that this particular approach and subject matter were difficult for you, and suggest an alternative approach if you can think of one.

When you are looking at the stars, it is hard to pay attention to the muck underfoot...

6. Flaming Exits

Some people feel impelled to post their final message in a deliberately antagonistic, angry vein. In many cases, this is also their first posting, which makes the derision of being informed that we haven't done what they wanted even more ridiculous than it was intended to be.

As has been noted, often such people post, but then lurk on the list for some time waiting to see what kind of response they get.

There seem to be two major useful responses to such flaming exits. One is to post a humorous commentary, basically intended to cheer up the remaining members of the list, dispersing the pall that such an exit tends to produce. The other is to refuse response, to hold back and go on.

There is, of course, the counter-flame. If the poster happens to be lurking around, this can result in a running battle, which usually ends up with the person leaving and the list disturbed and perturbed. If the poster is not lurking, such counter-flames do little except for sometimes stirring up those remaining on the list.

Frankly, I see little benefit in responding to flaming exits in any way on the list, except possibly by private email asking for reasonable comments and wishing good luck in finding whatever they are looking for.

7. Flames

Flames, and especially long-term battles involving name-calling and other aggressive/abusive strategies, often call forth further flames, in an expanding spiral of mutual flaming that can leave a burned wasteland behind.

Preferred response - think before you post. wait a day, read it again, and decide if you really need to post this. Consider sending it as private email.

Consider what impression people will receive of you. Don't forget, your next boss, future friend, or next door neighbor may be reading this. Think how they will laugh at you!

Fleabites...

1. Why hasn't anyone responded to my piece? (typically sent 15 minutes after sending a 2000 word piece:-(

Sadly, most of us have a few other involvements in our life. No matter how it may appear, we are NOT simply plugged into writers, waiting to read your piece and respond instantly.

Preferred - be patient. take someone else's piece and respond to it! do a critique, a tech piece, something else, and wait.

2. That was really good (or similar responses, comments, etc. without a clue as to what they refer to)

Due to the magic of technology, some of us won't even see the piece you are responding to for some length of time after seeing your piece, and there may be any number of intervening pieces, even from the same author. Of course, some of us can't remember from one piece to the next, even if they are sitting in the mailbox together.

Preferred - copy enough material from the piece you are responding to or commenting on to give the reader the context of your remarks. Note that a similar rationale should be used for comments on books, T.V. shows, etc. outside the list - some of us won't be watching The World Mud Wrestling Championship for Mixed Cow and Human Tagteams, honest! So make sure your comment gives us enough background to understand what you are talking about.

3. Posting private email without asking the originator

Now, in some cases, the confusing comments result from references to private email. Obviously, one way to handle this is to include some of the original email - however, you should ask the originator for permission before doing that.

It is always permissible to respond to private email with private email. Responding in public is a bit like pulling the covers off during private intercourse - check with your partner before revealing yourself to the public!

Preferred:

In general, post when you think more than one person can benefit from seeing your work. if it is really just for one person, send it private email.

Respond to postings by posting to the list when you think more than one person can benefit from the response. Respond by private email in other cases.

Respond to private email in private email. If you think it is important enough to post, discuss it with your correspondent beforehand.

[brought to you as a public service by Smokey the Bore, who is getting tired of coughing. Stamp out forest fires before they start - kill a matchmaker today!]

if you have other sightings of smoking embers, hotspots, etc. to report, please feel free to contribute. you can post or send your flame warnings to me (tink!)

Remember - why do ducks have flat feet? so they can stamp out forest fires. why do elephants have flat feet? so they can stamp out flaming ducks. why do people have flat feet? got between the elephants and the ducks...

<splat!>