TECH: Critiques (esp. of poetry)

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

original posting: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 11:06:11 JST

Hi, Lisa MacDougall

I'm having a problem posting critiques of people's work. I've done workshops,

me too!

I did the formal education degree type thing, and I took a class last year that changed the way I look at critiquing.

"the formal education degree type thing" - I love that phrasing!

When I was in university, the object of the game was to find out what was wrong with the piece, and then tell the writer how to fix it.

I'm pleasantly surprised - I've known a few who only got the "find out what was wrong" part. That tends to make a critic who thinks smashing people is the name of the game. Glad to hear you got the other part, too.

In my workshop, it was more a case of "this works, this doesn't, maybe if you try this?".

I tend to present alternatives... partly out of sheer frustration with people saying "this isn't good" and not giving me a clue as to how to fix it...

And the class that I took last year had a totally different approach, one that I found refreshing and non-threatening and wonderful. But I don't know how other people, especially people on here, will react to it. I don't want to come on as if I want to "change the rules." I just want to tell you what we did and see how you feel about it. Of course, I also want to make as many people as I can do things "my way." :)

sounds good! (what rules? I thought we were doing the anarchistic shuffle - related to the Resurrection Shuffle, but less rhythmic...:-)

In this class, we were taught that there is no 'right' way to write, and that no one has the right to assume what the writer meant when he wrote something. The purpose of a workshop, of critiques, is to help the writer improve. The way we were taught to do this is similar to bio-feedback.
Instead of picking on words and phrases, punctuation and spelling, we asked ourselves the following questions when faced with a work:
1. What did I hear?
2. What did I imagine?
3. How did it make me feel?
The object here is to let the writer know what effect his work had on the reader. Then it's up to the writer to decide whether or not to change anything.
Does this make any sense to any of you?

YES! I'd broaden it just a touch to "effectS", and I think working with the writer to suggest ways of tightening up those effects is a valuable exercise for both of us, but... let me jump back to the model of writing I tend to use. Writer has notion, captures part in words, and reader reconstructs from the words. Terribly hard for the writer to guess what the reader will construct, and terribly important. So what you are talking about is feeding that back to the writer, to let them know what the words did. On-target!

So, I have a hard time jumping in and saying "you should change this," "take out this line," or "find another word for this." I also have a hard time just saying "I like it!" because that's not very useful. I guess what I'm saying is that there's this really neat thing I've learned and I'd like to share it with you, and also that when I do critique anything, this is why I'm doing it the way I am.

So, essentially you try to sum up what "internal reality" the piece summons up for you? what sights, sounds, feelings, etc.?

Sounds helpful. Of course, I'm not much of a poet, but even in "straight fiction" this should be helpful.

Egads, I hope I'm not coming across the wrong way. Guess that's just a problem I have to get used to when using the computer. :)

drop back and punt - as far as I can tell, that's a problem every writer has to get used to no matter what medium they use. The computer just makes it easier to get your kicks... on route 66! (sorry, my haunted cd player picked that point to drop that in).

I think writing always has the problem of possibly "coming across the wrong way." But, as you suggest, feedback helps correct that. Sadly, normal print doesn't allow much feedback, and it certainly isn't timely. The computer allows faster and easier feedback.

What did I hear - you'd suggest that people provide critiques, especially of poetry, in terms of what effects it had on them - what did they hear, imagine, feel while reading.

What did I imagine - feedback loops, without much flame (it should be difficult to complain about someone saying they heard, imagined, or felt something)

How did it make me feel - excited! also warmed to see someone trying to help us learn a way to critique.

Thank you very much for the idea!

(um - would you like to summarize it for the faq? is it okay if I refer people to your writeup?)

TECH: Help with Critiquing

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

original posting: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 03:30:03 JST

what a deal I got for you! see

http://community.livejournal.com/writercises/57654.html

for a copy of my ponderous text called FAQ: CRIT guidelines (DRAFT!) - critique guidelines

if'n you ain't got time to peruse that, listen up to the folks that have made suggestions - they all make sense to me.

mostly - read the piece. if'n you had writ it, what kind of comments would help you make it better? scribble those down, and pass them along. sure, maybe the author knows you can't walk an artichoke on a leash in Denver, but maybe they just goofed - and they'll be so happy to have someone point out that it takes a choke chain, they will just expectorate with joy. commas, how to use that shift key, where the quotes are - there's a lot of little stuff, and we all need all the eyeballs we can get pointing it out.

you can also suggest how you would have done something. this is something I do a lot of, for two reasons. one - it gives the author a suggestion as to a little different way of handling it. two - it gives you a little exercise in handling something.

also, you is bringing your own little blank spots up against this piece of writing. it can be very nice to point out that we don't know what kind of flowers grow on southern fences, or that Joe just went from Alaska to Florida without any explanation of how, or that the bathroom was on the left before, but now it's on the right. the author knows what they is trying to say - you get to tell them which parts went whizzing by without explanation, details, and sense.

but, mostly, really, truly, honestly, on bended knees I'se asking you - give them crits a try. even when they hurt, they help, they really do help.

and if you'se worried about the bent nose gang breaking your knees for saying that kind of stuff about their brother, don't be. they only get paid if they leave the hands alone, so you can keep writing...

BTW - I often find that in critiquing some other person's piece, I learn something about my own blind spots. I mean, I read someone's piece, realize it's all talking heads without no scenery, and then I realize I do that in all my pieces, too... this may be something of a bene, or something of a downer, since you learn to critique yourself better by critiquing other people.

(I said I wasn't going to say much, and then I rambles on and on - gotta see a sub about some crit to do now, okay? you all crit now?)

marlon brando, where are you?